Run Run Run

Welcome to the blog. You'll get that sub 21 soon. Good luck on your quest towards Boston.

nice pace! and welcome to the blog. best of luck with your marathon training.

solid running the last couple of days. welcome aboard, and good luck with the upcoming marathon...

Don't forget to stretch - good luck...

I would love to hold that pace for 6.2!

I would love to hold that pace for 1.2!

I would love to hold that pace for xx.2!

I would love to hold that pace for infinity and beyond + 0.2.

- Nevels.... you push a fast pace all the time. I've seen your blog. Plus you run on Saturday nights.

- Burt.... you are buzz light year in Mizunos.

i feel your pain. the rest days quite often throw me off worse than even a hard workout.

...but necessary.

Rest days are important. Doesn't the nostril flare cause too much wind resistance?

I need to teach you how to post pictures on your blog. I'll send you a PM.

Burt, can you send me a PM on how to do it, too? I'm too lazy and stupid to figure it out on my own :)

Looking forward to seeing the extra nostril flare. Pictures of people running are usually funny!

You got it, Tracy.

Oh yeah. That's some serious flare. It's like Frankenstein and a gorilla got married.

Ha ha ha! Are you calling my wife a gorilla? Ha ha! Good stuff Burt you are funny!

Nice. What a lot of effort captured digitally.

I can see this made into a scene in a movie. You've got that game face on and the camera zooms in on the pain, the agony, the effort.

Then the camera pans out as the guy behind you passes you. Turns out you're running very slowly.

I couldn't even get the ankle bracelet off at the end of this 5k. They were like "Can we help you with your ankle bracelet?" I was like "no I can get it." 30 seconds later and no bracelet.... I was like "Actually can you get it off?" I was beat up from the feet up!

So what marathon are you training for? What's your goal for it?

It's the Baystate Marathon in Lowell, MA. I've never run a marathon before, so I guess finishing would be a conservative goal. Next... maybe a hair below 4hrs. Next again, and a reach at that, would be a 3:15:59 to qualify for Boston. So you're not able to see my Frankenstein picture? It's showing up on my computer... weird. I definitely need Burt's help!

Following a training plan or just logging miles?

I've been logging miles as of late, but I'm looking into an 18week Hal Higdon marathon training program. Any suggestions for training programs?

I'm not the person to ask. I went into my first (and only) marathon blind. Logged some miles. Not enough miles. My only goal was to finish, but next time I'd like to actually race it :)

I know there are some great plans out there. I would ask Carolyn in Colorado what she did for her first marathon--she ran a great first one last May.

If you hang around the blog long enough, particularly the Training Review Requests in the Discussion Forum, you'll pick up on the philosophy of the blog. I am not the most accomplished runner on the blog by a long shot, nor I am the expert in this philosophy, but I will tell you that the general philosophy is to run 6 days/week and build up to where you can do 10 miles/day with a longer run one day (usually the last day of the week). Just run at a pace that's easy enough that it doesn't compromise the next day's workout. Note that you don't start at 10 miles/day. You start at whatever mileage you can handle and SLOWLY build up to 10 miles/day.

After you're up to 10 miles/day then start doing tempo runs and other speedwork.

At least that's the blog (Sasha) philosophy as I understand it.

With that said, I myself do not run precisely 10 miles every day, though I average around that sometimes.

When I decided to do my first (and thus far only) marathon, the first thing I did was transition to running 6 days/week. I was running 4 days/week and I went up to 5 for about a month and then to 6. I did that for several months (4-5 I think) and then I did a training plan out of a book called "Run Faster." The book is by Brad Hudson. He has 3 or 4 training plans in the back of the book. You can select the one that has the mileage that you feel like you can handle. I did the second one. It peaked at about 62 miles/week.

Now I'm using a training plan from a book called "Advanced Marathoning" by Brad Hudson. It is a tougher training plan than the one I did before.

I don't know a lot about Hal Higdon, but I just took a quick look at his website. I think his novice programs are geared toward helping you finish a marathon, as opposed to actually running a marathon with a good time. His intermediate programs are a little better, but they're still lower mileage than what I did.

It looks to me like you've got good speed, but I don't know what kind of mileage you're used to. I suggest you just work on building mileage as much as you can until about 18 weeks before your marathon, and then find a marathon training plan that works for you at that point given the weekly mileage that you've attained.

I hope that helps.

Thanks so much! I appreciate your time during this hectic week!

if you had only taken one more step, you could have gotten to 5.278. darn. so close...

You need to get a nice tech shirt and ditch the cotton shirt!

Getting anything in is better than nothing. Way to go!

these are the days that keep us in the sport...

...every day is a winding road...

...i get a little bit closer...

...everyday is a faded sign...

this is the watch i use:

http://www.amazon.com/Garmin-Forerunner-Receiver-Sports-Watch/dp/B000CSQJ8C/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1274881731&sr=8-1

garmin definitely has newer versions available at a much higher cost. they don't really have any new features, just a more modern design.

i love my watch. i am anal about NOT looking at it. i don't want to be dependent on it. i just look at it at the end of a run to see my time, pace, distance, etc. i can also use it for biking which is nice. i like to run without it too... no pressure then. i'm slow and i know it; don't need a watch reminding me of that all the time ;)

Thanks KP! I just checked it out... looks great. Thanks for the info.

my advice would be to just run by feel. if it's an easy run, take it easy, if it's hard, push accordingly. if you get too caught up in the paces that you're running, then the paces themselves in training often become the driving, all-important factors of the runs, which increases the likelihood of you ignoring what your body is telling you. (and it's been my experience that the body has some pretty good "data acquisition sensors" scattered about...)

all of my training is effort-based, and, for what it's worth, it has worked out for me (but, then again, i don't have all the cool new toys like kp, although she did offer to let me use her ipod during delano...)

oh you hush. i don't have cool toys. you didn't take me up on the offer after i specifically put beatles music on it for you! i only listen to it on the dreadmill, so the ol' ipod doesn't get used much. i like to hear what is going on around me too much.

anyways, i try to go by feel as well. last night i ran with a friend (john you "know" her - brooke mcdaniel's mom) and she told me she wanted to run the first mile at a 10 pace. well, i didn't look at my watch, but i knew we were going much faster than that. it turned out to be a 9:15 pace. i just let her set the pace and went with her.

i run with people that look at their watch constantly and it drives me crazy. i like it for the overall results. i don't use it at all for splits, etc. i try to go on feel. at delano i ran a few miles with a friend of mine on a relay team and she kept looking at her watch every 5 seconds and said "we need to slow down" and things like that. it irritated me because i felt good and knew it was going to be a long day and wanted to get a few good miles in before i crashed. in my humble (and very novice) opinion, i think going sans watch is the better thing to do. you want minimalist shoes, go with the minimalist mindset on technology too.

don't get me wrong; at face value, a pace-tracking device is very handy, however, almost without fail, i see people get a garmin and become slaves to their pace. all things being equal, this would be ideal; however, physiologically, you are not the same person today that you were yesterday or that you will be tomorrow (you ate something different, had a stressful night, slept funny, or heard a really really funny dirty joke that keeps the body chemistry just slightly different), and that causes the effort required to run certain paces vary wildly. by constantly having a pace fed to you, you run the risk of ignoring body signals and holding yourself to a pace that may be faster or slower than you need to be going (some days, my "65%-75%" level effort can vary between 6:20 and 8:00/mile - not a trivial difference)

all that being said, having a GPS might be handy for measuring distances while wandering around or using during tempo runs for target paces, but some discretion generally needs to be employed.

(what can i say, i'm a poor grad student, i have to justify not having the cool stuff somehow, right...)

...climbing down off my soapbox now...

here is a soapbox in the other direction i just found:

http://barb.fastrunningblog.com/blog-05-26-2010.html

i personally am on the don't do it box. if i hadn't spent a pretty penny on my watch (the price has dropped quite a bit since i bought mine) i probably wouldn't buy one period knowing what i know now. the guy that got me into running lives and breathes for his garmin. he told me i needed one. i didn't know better, so i bought one.

Thanks for the opinions. I definitely go with how my body feels.... some days I glide and some days I don't. I wish there was more time in the day for running and less obligations to fulfill.

My thoughts on a GPS watch are exactly that "a cool new toy". I'm not going to try and keep a 6:30 pace if I feel like I'm going to die in the process. What I do like is being able to see all the interesting data post run. I wonder if the novelty of a GPS watch would wear off? Damn you Nevels and your higher consciousness!

Thank you KP for all the info!

Are all people in Alabama cool? Do you two have funny accents? Ha ha J/K!

higher consciousness... that's what happens after i take a hit of the... well, nevermind...

as for being cool, kp and all her huntsville friends are; i'm just a native mississippian who has never been accused of being cool (but have been accused of having the accent...)

and i agree about silly obligations (work, family, friends, etc...) getting in the way of running at times. sometimes you just need the release...

you are so full of it. first of all, you've lived in alabama nearly half of your life. therefore, you are just as much an alabamian as you are a mississippian.

secondly, we ALL aspire to be like nevels; thus making him the dreaded "cool." i am just a wannabe that has no potential. i am about as un-cool as they come.

oh yea.... i have no idea what you're talking about with the accent thing. i think i sound perfectly normal. nevels, on the other hand, picked up his dialect from his native mississippi. unfortunately, they tend to be a bit redneck unlike us alabamians ;)

Ha ha ha! Funny and cool.... both of you!

i know that some days i've got it, and some days i don't. usually the days that i don't, if i think about it, i can figure out what my body is trying to tell me to rest or recover from.

anything come to mind...?

I think that I have a hard time running with patience. Somedays my first mile is slow and other days it's fast. I'm hard on myself when I see that the first mile run was 7:45 or 8:00. Even though I'm logging low miles I need to understand that eventually my running will evolve and the small stuff won't bug me anymore.

Basically I need to pull on the reigns a little concerning my fixation with time.

nevs, give him the speech about your 16 minute miles...

everyone has to warm up. from my experience, you would do better to run 1 or 2 miles warm up at a slower pace and then kick it into gear for a few miles before doing a cool down. but, what do i know?

You're right KP. Whenever I start slower I always have a more enjoyable run.

There is no way Nevels ran a 16 min mile? Can you even walk a 16 min mile?

i apologize in advance for this somwhate long-winded rambling post...

i guess my first suggestion would be to not wear a watch on your easy runs (we runners tend to be a bit addicted, i know... yet another reason i'm somewhat opposed to garmins and other gadgetry...)

in all honesty, my first mile is often much much much slower than my average pace for any given run. usually, my first mile falls somewhere in between 7:45 and 8:30, sometimes a little faster or slower, and my overall average pace for a standard easy mileage day is usually anywhere between 6:45 and 7:30.

i'm an engineer, so let's play with the numbers a bit... i'm fairly confident that with a solid effort i can drop a 16:30 5k, which averages out to a 5:19/mile. if i run an 8:15 first mile for a training run (which happens quite often), it amounts to a 176 second slowdown per mile, or a 55.17% slowdown for the first mile. using the same logic, assuming that you can run a 21:00 5k (6:46/mile avg), adding 55% for the first mile would be 10:30. don't sweat a 7:45 or 8:00 first mile. truth be told, when i run my little 5-mile morning shakeout run, i have averaged right at 8/mile several times.

a little more practically speaking, my run today was 9.1 miles in 1:06:08, which averages to 7:16/mile, which is still a 37% slowdown from my projected 5k race pace for the average (as opposed to the first mile calculation from above). extending the same calculation to your projected race pace, your average pace might be 9:16. the way things often work out for me is that i start slow, as kp mentioned, generally running the first 1 or 2 (or 5 or 6) miles slower than the average pace, and let my body warm up on its own and find its own pace. i typically don't consciously pick up the pace in an easy mileage run, but my pace keeps dropping the farther i go. sometimes it takes a mile for the pace to start dropping and i'm flying at 30 seconds/mile under my avg pace by the two mile marker, and sometimes it takes 6 or 7 miles for me to really get into a rhythm. let your body find where it needs to be based on the effort exerted; it's pretty good at it...

recalling my xc training in high school (ironically enough, most of which was done on roads or an asphalt track...), the training program was entirely pace driven, so we were VERY anal about hitting our paces. one year my pr was a 22:58, and most of my easy mileage was done at a 9:00-9:30 pace. the next year (after i had developed a little better base of mileage), i was always shooting for easy runs averaging 8:00/mile, maxed out at 50-55 miles/week over the summer base-building period, and i managed to hit an 18:40 5k. granted, i did speed workouts and enjoyed doing them (still do, to some degree...), but the bulk of my mileage was long and slow. the next summer, i was running 7:00/mile (which, in retrospect, was probably too fast for base mileage, but live and learn, i guess...), maxed out at 72 miles/week, and managed a 16:57 5k.

so take all that for whatever it's worth (probably not all too much; there are folks on this blog much smarter than me...), but my best advice, and what has probably freed my training (and improved my ability to race well), is to not focus on the time. if it keeps bugging you, as i mentioned before, leave the watch at home. i have plenty of times.

one more note is that recovery is the most overlooked and ignored aspect of training. we runners always feel like we have to get out and pound the pavement and think that we'll lose whatever we've gained by sitting out for a day. trust me when i say that recovery (in one form or another) is where the benefits of training occur, and if you never let your body recover, all that ends up happening is the gradual breakdown of various bits, pieces, and giblets inside of you that will eventually lead to an overuse injury, which i can definitely say from firsthand experience, suck. (case in point, notice that i only mentioned 3 years of high school pr's. i got a stress fracture a month or so after that 16:57 which took me out for 2 months and caused my senior year to be slower than my junior year...)

and for the infamous 16min/miles... within the last year, i have run a race where my average pace was 16:35/mile, and i can assure you that there were points in the race where i was unable to maintain 20 minute miles...

again, sorry about the long post...

Thanks Nevels! Good stuff. Have a great weekend.

wow! you have a lot of energy left at the end. maybe you could push a bit more throughout the whole thing? i pretty much always try to finish strong for the last .10 or so... just like if i were in a race; you gotta kick at the end! it may be dumb. i've never really gotten anyone's opinion on whether or not it is "smart" or not to do all the time during training.

nice EARLY run!

Thanks KP. I thought that might be the answer... push a little harder throughout so I don't have as much left at the end.

Early morning is definitely tough for me to do, but then no one is crabby pants at home when I want to run after work. Plus a predicted 86 degrees and 100% humidity get me up early everytime!

I'd say that speeding up toward the end is fine. Depending on what your overall training looks like, speeding up at the end might be a good idea (i.e., if it's the only speedwork you get).

One thing to remember is that you don't need to feel blasted at the end of each run, but if you're feeling good toward the end, by all means, go ahead and pick it up; I do it all the time. (I guess for clarity's sake I should note that when I say I pick it up, usually I get up to a little slower than tempo pace for around the last mile or two.)

The key is to make sure that your "easy" runs are just that: easy. Picking it up a little toward the end is fun, and I guess I probably average doing it once or twice per week on easy runs; however, as a whole, I would still classify those runs as "easy" overall.

The purpose of the slow easy runs is to accustom your body to handling the running more easily and more efficiently (or, if you want to talk in all those funny multi-syllabic physiological words, strengthening the cardiac muscle and making the alveoli in the lungs more efficient, while simultaneously increasing both the number of capillaries going to various musculature and increasing the amount of mitochondria and red blood cells in the blood)

The trick to all that is to keep it easy (again, for the bulk of the run), because the energy storage, conversion, and delivery systems involved in slow running are all sustainable and need to be sustained for a decent amount of time for improvement, while the energy systems associated with speed are a little different and definitely not sustainable.

As an aside, recovery from slower runs is a lot easier than fast runs (less wear and tear to repair), which lets you get back out there sooner (always a plus...)

All that being said, I go back to my annoyingly ubiquitous "run how you feel" statement. When I feel like running faster, I run faster. (maybe one day I'll be a real runner with a real training plan...)

Sorry for the long winded (wow, that got out of hand...), confusing, maybe even contradictory post, but there's my $0.02...

Thanks again for dropping the knowledge Nevels.... always appreciated!

still r&r'ing?

solid run.

(and nice weather... I'm jealous...)

nice pace!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuAUI_0knfk

Ha ha ha ha ha!!! Love that scene!

well which one is it? when?

It is the Baystate Marathon in Lowell MA. October 17th 8am. Supposedly it is pretty flat and fast. Alot of marathoners "in these here parts" run it to qualify for Boston. I on the other hand will run to finish.

step one: register (check)

step two: train (work in progress)

step three:race (well, that's where it gets fun...)

congrats on signing up, and now you've got that carrot hanging out in front of you for some motivation. good luck...

so how'd that 10 go?

I would definitely go for the gear.

awww... poor deer. your ninja skills are just too good, derunzo.

Nice ninja powers.

cool new shorts, and that sounds like it was an awesome run. (in the words of some of the most prolific ninjas of all time: cowabunga, dude...)

by the way, regarding the shoes, my pair of roclite 295's is 1/2 size bigger than my normal shoes, but it has a wide toebox and decently wide heel, so i've never had any issues with feet swelling (and i wore them for the entire delano 100). that being said, i usually don't have many issues with swelling feet in any pairs of shoes (lucky, i guess...knock on wood...)

all in all, they are a great pair of shoes and i would recommend them to anyone trying to get into a good pair of trail shoes, although it might take a little time to adjust to the slightly lower-profile design of the inov-8's (not much cushioning means that your own natural shock absorption systems - foot, ankle, and knee joints - take up the slack where most running shoes have big ol' cushions) still a great pair of shoes, though; i'm still enamored with them. jun and aaron kennard on the blog are also happy customers of the inov-8 line if you want second and third opinions...

good luck on the trails...

Nevels.... after my first consult with yourself concerning the Roclite 295's and asking questions of Jun and Mr. Kennard, I ordered my pair through Zappos on Friday. Size 11. I'm normally a 10 1/2. Can't wait for those ninja cleats to arrive.

I just got new trail shoes in last week; Montrail Masochist in light blue (to a girl, the color is important). I haven't ran in them yet because I don't want to get them dirty! I know... that just made me even girlier. They are pretty though. My other trail shoes aren't dead yet. These were just on sale, so I couldn't pass up the cheap price. I think my next shoes will be Inov-8 Roclite 260's. I'm anxious to hear what you think about your new babies.

I love new stuff! I've been checking the UPS tracking information a little too much since I ordered them. I'm going to Google your new trail shoes to see if the Montrails are in fact "pretty".

KP.... you were spot on as usual. Your new Montrails are pretty. I bet they smell nice too.

they are. trust me :)

i'm wearing them to work today, and i can verify that they do smell nice. my other trail shoes.... not so much. that is why i am taking my sweet time breaking these babies in on the trail.

My shoes smell like roses, strawberries, and chocolate.

i'm on call with the police department so my shoes can be used for crowd control...

My 6yr old daughter likes to wear her canvas sneakers without socks.... needless to say, I was looking for the dead animal in the wall until I realized it was her stanky bunyons.

awesome

that sounds tasty.

kelli (on the blog) has a popsicle after every single run.

sweet!

"like butta" - Mike Meyers

enjoy...

Awesome. I've been thinking about getting some Inov-8s. They seem to be all the rage these days.

I love my Inov-8s. They've been punished and keep coming back for more.

A recent 37 miles of punishment through Bryce Canyon!

excellent....

Thanks for letting me pick your brain on the 295's Nevels!

how are the new shoes?

They rule! Super comfortable and grippy. I've never had a legit pair of Trail shoes to compare them to, but I've enjoyed the couple of miles out of the box. Being on the trails is so much fun.

sweet! enjoy the trails! they are delightful.

nice!

Looking good.

oh boy! that is an early start.

nice miles!

p.s. i like your new pic.

Sick! I see you have encountered some of the aspects that make me love trail running! :D Rocks and Roots and Obstacles OH MY! Good job!

Shoes.. I really liked the 2130's never liked the 2140's probably why they went to the 2150 so quick. The 2150 is growing on me.

That's funny.. I just read the last sentence over.. The 2140 for me, was to short or something. Maybe they gave me the wrong size, I only had one pair...

Good run in the heat! I find that summer running in New England is the hardest! But got to put in quality runs now to have fun in the fall!

Saw you're doing your first marathon in October. I'm doing my 3rd the week before yours (getting married on 10/16/10 so I can't do the 10/17 one lol). Which marathon are you doing?

It's the Baystate Marathon in Lowell MA.

It's supposed to be flat & fast, but I'm just looking to finish:)

ahhhh.... summer.

Normally I would say, "Mmmmmmmmmmmmm soup," but not in this context.

That's a nice 5k time.

Thanks Burt! I'd like to break 21min and maybe someday under 20min.

i feel your pain, man...

INOV-8!!!!!

I do love them. I makes me sad to see everyone in their pretty black ones though. I have last years ugly gray ones. Time for a new pair.

Suh-weet!

whoop whoop!

Do you shave your legs? They look really smooth.

Nice pace you had going there.

Shave my legs? What kind of man do you think I am? I Nair them.

Just kidding of course.... I'm just not as hairy as your average Wookie.

Hey thanks for you comment yesterday!

I too always try to get up early and beat the heat. Nice time BTW!

Sometimes it's nice just to enjoy a little run through your small town.

"I was born in a small town, and I can breathe in a small town. Gonna die in a small town, that's prolly where they'll bury me!"

nice. solid run; keep up the good work...

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

I know KP... this morning the alarm went off at 4am and I didn't have it in me to get out of bed. Maybe some miles after work today.

Running, surfing, eating everything in sight. Same thing.

Do i know you! lol still learning this site... quite a challenge!

nice miles bright and early in the morning.

KP loves deviations. Standard deviations!

Man, way to push it hard.

Maybe you just need to run 15.2 miles before you really start feeling good.

Hopefully some rest will take care of it.

Where did you go Derunzo?

Hey Burt man... I haven't run since Sept. 5th and I haven't had anything to write about. This is the Fast Running Blog, not the no running blog. I'm thinking of trying to get to a specialist to see what I should be doing for this nagging achilles issue.

Sorry to hear it's still bugging you, but if it makes you feel better, your comment about the no running blog made me laugh.

Welcome to the blog.

LOL!

Thanks Burt.... still doing the P90X?

I finished the program a few weeks ago. I haven't done any of the workouts since like I'd hoped to of continued.

That's a couple of fast miles. Glad you're on the road again. I knew you just couldn't wait to be on the road again.

still on the road???????????

Just barely. I ran 2 miles on 12/14/10 with no achilles pain. I'm going to give it another go tomorrow and see how it feels. I don't want to push too hard, as this has been a real downer for me. I think some lower body strength training and proper stretching might benefit my overall running health.

how's that achilles treating you?????

Better thanks. When I first thought it was completely healed a couple of weeks ago, the tendon would be sore the next couple of days. After my last two 2 mile runs there have been no after effects. I'm super psyched to slowly ease my way back in..... I've lost a ton of fitness. I'm not much for cardio if it doesn't involve running.

excellent.

keep on easing back into it, and you'll be back before you know it...